Baseball and Sarasota - As anyone who reads the paper or watches the news on TV knows, we have been working with the Cincinnati Reds to devise a plan whereby we would develop a new baseball facility in exchange for what has become a 30-year commitment from the Reds to keep Sarasota as their spring training home. Soaring construction costs have caught up to this project just as they have many others, so in spite of a state legislative appropriation we are eligible to apply for the local share is considerable. Most of those details have been well reported in the local media, and we continue to explore ways to minimize the impacts of any potential project on city tax payers.
As for public opinion, at one end of a spectrum are the die-hard loyalists who would see spring training and minor league baseball preserved at nearly any price. At the other end are those who don't feel one dime of public subsidy for such an activity is appropriate, regardless of economic impact. In the middle are the majority of people, with all sorts of opinions both on the overall value to the community of such a facility and the validity of economic impact numbers. What do you think about the project, its impacts, or baseball's place in Sarasota? If you're not sure what to think, what questions would you like to see answered?
As for public opinion, at one end of a spectrum are the die-hard loyalists who would see spring training and minor league baseball preserved at nearly any price. At the other end are those who don't feel one dime of public subsidy for such an activity is appropriate, regardless of economic impact. In the middle are the majority of people, with all sorts of opinions both on the overall value to the community of such a facility and the validity of economic impact numbers. What do you think about the project, its impacts, or baseball's place in Sarasota? If you're not sure what to think, what questions would you like to see answered?
posted by Michael McNees at 5:15 PM
26 Comments:
I think you must first decide if you are providing the funding for emotional (history, culture, etc.) reasons or economics reasons.
If it is an emotional decision, then you make a decision yes or no, and move on.
If it's being justified based upon it's financial impact on the City, then someone needs to step forward with the economic analysis that proves the value.
Personally, I believe the City has many more pressing needs than a baseball team for 15 days a year (half of the March games are played away). I go to those games and, far-and-away, most in attendance are locals that will spend their money on some other venue if baseball is not available.
Having a Spring Training team is nice, but not $54 million nice.
If the city JUST has to spend money, then Please use the $54 M to build a new police station.
It's definitely a tough call. It's serious money, money it's hard to be sure we'd 'get back' in tax revenue. It's essentially subsidizing an out-of-town business in many ways.
On the other hand, it's one of the few ways for the Sarasota name to get into the sporting consciousness (as we have ZERO other sporting events in town of note, especially of a national standing). And it's a draw for a good many tourists (my own parents and grandparents always include Spring Training in their plans when the visit...I've no doubt that other visitors to other FL towns swing through Sarasota to see their team).
In the end, to me it comes down to one of the few ways that the City might actually do something for 'regular folk' outside of the basics. Subsidizing developers (my opinion of events the last few years), subsidizing the Arts (most house painters and waiters aren't regulars at the Symphony I'd wager) and other things that have made our town more and more of a 'rich' haven don't provide much return for the people that really built this town. Baseball (it's more than just March...it's the A team, it's the state HS tourney, etc.) is one of those things that the city can do. Not acting on it, would to me be a further demonstration that the City is more concerned with creating a place for the wealthy to play than for the residents to live.
Matt K:
It IS only half of March. You don't have to have a $54 million stadium to host an Advanced Single A team or a High School Tournament. They're just fine with Ed Smith as it is.
Also, don't be so sure that this is an event for the "regular guy". After Clearwater built the Phillies a new stadium, the Phillies upped the ticket price to $20/person + $5 parking. Add in a couple of hot dogs and sodas, and the total tab can be around $60-70.
Please provide the data to back up the need. What exactly is the attendance numbers for ALL baseball events - list separately.
Breakdown EXACTLY, in dollars, where the money goes in the community. What is the cost to the City to maintain the stadium, personnel, etc. Do a comparison of other stadiums in Florida and the attendance numbers and expense. Exactly what renovations need to be done and how much for each?
Agreed that more needs to be done for the "common" citizen of Sarasota, our children, young people, but if there is a big, new stadium with no people ...wouldn't that be wasteful and just embarrassing? In other words, prove it!
sarasotaman-
Sorry, it's not just 1/2 of March. Visitors from Ohio don't stay in Sarasota for a Tuesday game, then pack up and change hotels to catch the Reds play a day in Tampa. They stay in town. And visitors that come up to see the Ft. Meyers teams might never see Sarasota AT ALL if they didn't come up to a game; maybe they decide to head back later in the week and check out downtown or St. Armands. Spring Training baseball is not comparable to a normal franchise where all of the fans drive in for a few hours then drive home and are mostly local. It's just not comparable. It's also a full month where every newscast in central Ohio mentions Sarasota, not to mention ESPN and visiting teams journalists.
And it IS more than just the Reds Spring Training. If the parent club team leaves, exactly what holds the A team (on top of the other facilities and training the Reds do here) in town? An aging Ed Smith? The first offer of a better stadium, and they'd be gone.
Ditto the HS tourney. With no pro baseball basically inevitable if this falls through, what's to support Ed Smith enough to keep HS baseball here? Nothing. It's gone.
If the City/County/State/Reds can't get this done in a reasonable way, baseball (and thus all professional sports) in Sarasota is done.
And $60 for 2 to see major league baseball a few miles from home? Compared to say $100 to see a show at the Van Wezel (and that doesn't include any hot dogs)? Sounds about $40 more 'regular' to me.
Matt K:
Wrong again. Spring training observers are largely locals.
And the out-of-towners do, in fact, come in for the game then immediately leave. I've been a baseball fan and observer for 60 years, and I know several people who take a big part (if not all) of their annual vacation in March. They come to Florida for spring training games and typically try to get to two games a day. Bradenton in the morning and Sarasota at night. Orlando the next morning and Port St. Lucie the next night.
And you're telling me that you have to have a $54 million stadium to attract a High School tournament. Can you say that with a straight face?
Sarasotaman
You have any facts or evidence to support the 'fact' that most Spring Training game attendees are local to the hosting town?
How about this FACT. Zero night games in Bradenton in 2006. Zero night games in Sarasota following a Brandenton day game. And of the above, ONE in 2005. I hate to disagree with your scientific study, but not many visitors making the trek you write of it would seem based on the available game times.
And that visitors aren't actually staying a night in town? Eating lunch and/or dinner? Playing some golf in the am? Any evidence?
Don't recall writing that we needed a $54 million stadium to keep or attract a HS tournament. But with no stadium, which we'll end up with if we don't do something to keep the Reds IMO, we won't even have the option.
We do need an economic impact analysis, but your 'evidence' that there isn't one is lacking.
Matt K:
Congratulations. You win. Enjoy your stadium.
Besides, I'm not about to repeat this year's experience...when I waited in line for three hours on a VERY cold day in January to get tickets to a Reds/Yankees spring training game. Then, on game day, I watched a bunch of guys with numbers in the 80's and 90's on the back of their jerseys, because the first string players were all out in California playing in the World Baseball Classic.
Oh...one last thing. It took me about an hour and a half to get to the game from just north of Nokomis, because the County and City won't step up to the plate and properly fund transportation. They'd rather fund a $54 million stadium I guess.
I know this is off topic but in light of today's article concerning the allegation by the City's Purchasing Manager of wrongdoing by a Deputy Director at the Van Wezel I would like to comment. I believe that your Charter allows for the ability to justify not taking a lower quote. In determining the lowest responsive and responsible bidder your charter also allows discretion. If indeed items were deliberately "falsified" then yes there is a problem. Perhaps an internal audit of Purchasing as well would be appropriate to determine if this is more widespread than this particular instance and if all policies are adhered to.
In light of the budget review coming up here are my questions concerning the General Services department budget. My concern is based on the need for an entire department for "overhead" functions.
What do they do in relation to pocket parks as referenced in their budget?
How many grants have been researched or secured as referenced in their budget.
Why did the performance measures change in many categories, even the 02-03 figures when comparing the '04 -05 document to the '05-'06 document. In particular the number of travel requests and recomciliations changed from 3200+ each to 840 combined. This is 1/4 of the processing.
If they are involved in travel approval to assure compliance with the regulation why not eliminate this level and utilize your internal auditor if there appears to be a problem. Departmental staff should understand the regulation and Finance reviews appropriately.
200+ properties are listed as "managed." Are they "managed" or simply listed in a database. What actual management is required.
Could the City, County and Board of Education better manage annual bid requirements so that regional duplication is eliminated. For example, maybe a stipend is paid to the County to have our requirements included in their annual bids. This would free up our purchasing staff and also eliminate the cost of bidding. The County also has a workable sustainable purchasng program which we would be included in. After all, all three entities use the same database of vendors.
Why not use the p-card for travel.
Why was another level of management assistance created with the Procurement III description to assist in the management of the Warehouse? The Warehouse was budgeted for an 80,000 loss. Is this correct? Why not utilize the strengths of your present Central Stores Supervisor and reward him for his management skills. Let the Supervisor of Stores who came over from Utilities then assist and streamline by using the P-card.
What has been the increase in the use and stocking of environmentally preferable products. 20% of your projects were to have sustainable design included. Which projects have been identified.
What is the status of the "City Hall renovation. I think the last update was February 16.
Could the courier service be a candidiate for outsourcing to a bicycle courier service as an alternative method of delivery and the position divided into two part time job share employees less benefits.
Statute allows for electronic bid notification. There could then be a savings in advertising costs.
How many regulations have been revised and brought before the Commission. These numbers changed as well between budget documents.
Are there reports available for minority participation in all of the projects?
Purchases of Energy Star products and anticipated life cycle savings?
It is only my opinion but computerization and the internet as well as the use of the P-Card greatly impact the need for a separate department such as this. I think that is why some of the strategic objectives don't seem to fit into this function. I have stated before my concern about having renovation projects included in General Services rather than Public Works or Engineering. On the other hand, perhaps the answers to these questions would justify the department. I just think that some of the performance measures and objectives for this and all departments should be scrutinized for accomplishments.
Back on the baseball stadium topic. I would like to see Ed Smith upgraded rather than build an entirely new stadium. Obviously, the actual baseball surface is fine, so we're just talking about the stands and adjacent clubhouse facilities. What exactly is it about the stadium that needs replacement? The seating and lines of sight are fine. Do we need more seats? Can't the stands be rebuilt to accommodate that? Do we need better press facilities? Hearing the music playing after a game, the acoustics are great and the sound system is excellent, so that's not the issue. If a new stadium is built, why does the entire facility(ies) need to be devoted to baseball? Is there a way that tennis can be incorporated? I believe that Sarasota could attract a fairly large national tennis tournament if we had the facilities for it. Also, keep in mind the year-round benefits of baseball. Go over to the east coast where the Yankees used to have spring training and look at Tampa now. I bet you will find a lot more vacation travel from New York is coming to this coast now as well as people from NY moving here just as there are lots of folks from Boston living and buying property in the Ft. Myers area. Go to the sports bars there and announce you're a Yankee fan. Watch out! As far as the claims that money not spent on spring training will just be spent elsewhere; When I don't go to a spring training game, I will likely go to the beach. I am not spending the same amount of money, if any, at the concessions at the beach by a long shot. I bring my own cans of Bud to the beach. The CVB will certainly give anyone who asks the figures on vacation travel for spring training. The majority of the people I have met at the games are from out of town and many are here on vacation specifically because of spring training.
Again, I apologize fro breaking into this topic. I have some comments on the budget but don't know quite where to place them. i realize that some of my comments may appear very detailed. But, my concern is that if the performance measures are provided for information and guidance for the Commission to determine need for requested funds then there should be some consistency. Please review the previous budget documents, not just the column costs in the present budget, and look at the performance measures and strategic objectives. I have used General Services as an example because I consider some of the functions as overhead with the ability to either be outsourced or absorbed into other departments. For example, three new positions have been requested while the square footage maintained has been reduced. The travel reconciliation performance measures appear to be fluctuating significantly. The requests for service have changed over the last four years from an average of 45 per month to now 10 per month. Before deciding that outsourcing the custodial function doesn't work perhaps what was requested in the bid and resultant contract would have an impact on the service received. When was it bid and what does the contract require? Although GS may appear to have the costs as a wash there would be a cost to another department plus insurance and benenfit costs including Workers' Compensation. The number of appraisals has been reduced but costs have increased. Maybe I am reading something wrong but I think the performance measures should be more consistent and be an indicator to assist in the need for staff.
Gulfer:
Unfortunately it's the nature of a blog that it's not built for new topics as it's not an ongoing discussion, but seperate discussions. Once Mike makes a new post, you will see that all reading and posting to older topics comes to a halt. Notice the older "You choose the topic" post. Obviously nobody would see any new posts there. If this were a message board instead of a blog, there would be more ongoing discussions more organized by topic. Blogs are not really meant for this type of use.
Mike, I would be curious to know how often you visit Ed Smith? How many Spring Training and especially minor league games do you watch?
We are 30+ year residents and it's been years since we have been to Ed Smith. We have zero interest. I do not want to be taxed to support a stadium we don't need or want. I say let the Reds pay their own way. I am curious as to what the maintenance costs are, compared to the "revenue" it generates?
I am also confused by all the talk of combining a Stadium, affordable housing, and including the Fairgrounds, sprayfields on Tuttle and 27th as well as the Youth Complex.
Cyclist:
What do you mean "we"? Is that the royal we? What is confusing about including affordable housing in the development plans for the Fairgrounds? Besides which I now gather that is a dead issue as the incompetents who are running the Fairgrounds refuse to cooperate or step aside.
srqcomment,No royalty here. By "we" I meant my family, including our 3 sons who played Youth and HS baseball. None of us has been to Ed Smith in years.
I can't recall ever hearing a friend or even an aquaintance saying " I can't wait for Spring Training" or even better " lets catch a minor league game"
It also seems to me a Master plan including affordable housing, spray fields came suddenly from left field.
I think the spray fields came into the discussion as cheap land on which to build the stadium complex when the Fairgrounds property was out of the equation. Master plan? Is that like a codeword for conspiracy? So, your family and friends don't go to spring training or minor league games. What do you like? Maybe I and my friends don't want to pay taxes to support that. Spring training and baseball brings in millions of dollars to Sarasota's economy every year. Just ask the hotels and restaurants that are collecting millions in sales and bed taxes from visitors coming here for it. Those same bed taxes that pay for the beaches you probably enjoy. Well, maybe you don't like the beaches either. Visitors who are here now for a national AAU baseball tournament that wouldn't be here and spending money supporting Sarasota if we didn't have facilities like Ed Smith. Kudos to Pat Calhoon and his crew out there for bringing a national tournament to Sarasota.
This has been an interesting discussion, I thought I'd get on over the weekend and answer some of the questions posed of me but never got there - all in all probably better for me to have the weekend away from the work!
Some brief answers first -
Gulfer - I hear you, I asked many of those same questions when I reviewed those same budgets. There are answers to all of those questions, this just isn't a very good forum to have a detailed, technical discussion of those issues unless I want to spend the rest of the night writing them. As I believe I answered to you before, I have been looking at all of the org chart and am certain to have some tweaks before the Commission adopts the budget formally in September.
Cyclist - before I answer you question (which I will) I have to say that my personal likes or hobbies really don't have any relevance in the discussion. It's my job to represent the city professionally and accomplish the things the City Commission sets out to accomplish. In this case it's to bring home the best possible deal that would allow spring training and minor league baseball to remain in Sarasota in the form of what is now a potential thirty-year commitment from the Reds. The commissioners will then decide whether that deal works for them based on what they believe is right for their constituents and the community, which is where this conversation comes in.
Now for your question - this year so far I've attended 6 or 8 baseball games, the last being a Reds/Lakeland Tigers game about 10 days ago.
As for how spray fields, housing, etc. became a part of the conversation, as we and county staffers looked at potential land for new or relocated facilities, the Aqua Source (sp?) site that has long been coveted came into the conversation. With the potential for additional land, the idea of looking at bringing housing into the conversation was a natural. Nobody has said there's any direct connection or dependent relationship between the two.
Mike, I knew going in that asking you how many times you go to Ed Smith was loaded and personal, thanks for the reply.
Jeff LaHurd has some excellent comments pertaining to the baseball issue in Sarasota, in today's SHT he writes:
"...just as baseball has changed over the years, favoring the manicured look, everything antiseptically neat and tidy and just so, so too has Sarasota changed. We are no longer unknown, and while we want spring training here, we don't need it. Although it is part of our tradition, we will do quite nicely without it. And for their part, if the Reds decide they cannot toss in more chips to make their new stadium a reality, they, too, will do just fine elsewhere."
I have always been a baseball fan and have attended Spring Training games here in Sarasota going back to the White Sox days at Payne Park. I would agree with Jeff's statements - baseball is nice to have but not required.
I would also ask why the baseball stadium question seems to be bundled with affordable housing. These are separate issues and need to be evaluated separately.
As a business owner in Sarasota a favor the decision by the commission to try to find the best solution to keep the Reds here in our town. Many cities are building new stadiums for teams they have, it is not a request of this one team with our one city. The economy the games bring and the excitement of seeing the players around is wonderful and adds and always has added to the things that make our area enjoyable to be a part of. I dislike how people act as if it is a nice thing but not necessary. If we take this additude about the things that have always made Sarasota great and toss them around like they are not a big deal, then I think we are being very closed minded. Everything grows up and at one time they played on a field not as nice as the one today. Except that baseball is growing again and I hope we all figure out a way to encourage this wonderful pastime to stay and be a part of our future.
attitude
Mike, you are right, this isn't the forum and I did interrupt a good discussion on baseball so I am sorry. But, I give up. I just thought the budget discussions would be the forum.
Gulfer - I can't help thinking you're not reading my responses very closely, because I think there are answers in there for you.
SOS1 - as I said above nobody from staff has been bundling the stadium and housing issues, except where land is in play that might allow for housing also.
I think we should spend our $54M elsewhere. If Sarasotans want to watch MLB, they should take the 25 minute trip to St. Pete and watch a team put us to sleep 162 times a year rather than 15. I would really like to see if the revenue generated by those 8 Spring Training home games even covers the annual expenses for Ed Smith stadium.
Most people in Sarasota don't even give a hoot about the Reds. This is surely evidenced by the annual welcome parade that the city throws them every year. I think I counted 29 people this year....23 of them I recognized from the Salvation Army, just up the street. The other six were city employees.
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